The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

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The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Sdric » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:25 am

While I am a fan of cabal cost as a part of strategic thinking, I believe that an Elite-less mode is desperately needed.
The Elite power gap is big - and perceived even bigger - by new players.
The stream of negative reviews that Cabals: Card Blitz received was largely due to the P2W aspects. Even neither games is P2W by definition, it's as close to P2W as P2Progress gets.

In my eyes the decision to NOT introduce a mode where basic cards gain full power will hurt the game in the long run.

Having a nearly full set of Dominion Elites and since recently also a lot of Nether Elites I am very willingly ready to give up the advantage these possess for making this game available - and more fun - for a wider audience and a more competitive PvP scene.
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Kicek » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:39 pm

Hi,

With removing the modern mode, Kyy saved the game from a biggest mistake ever.
Cabals is all about balance and strategy. Despite what was told when the modern mode was introduced, this was never ment to be a game without a loyality cost. Back in the days when we even had a singles shop in the game, nobody even thought about elites.. And the loyality cost was a normal part of Cabals.

Modern mode was a not-tested, unbalanced way of playing the game, canibalizing with the 'classic' mode (which already suffers with a low number of active online opponents), with no possibility of development for players. It was not offering players anything valuable and definitely did not allow 'basic' cards to get the full power.

With the amount of free influence that we're getting now, building a semi-elite competitive deck is not hard at all. Going for that golden cards, doing dailies, grinding the ladder, that's what drives players to the game.
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Sdric » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:59 pm

I never said that normal mode in its old form was perfect, in fact I argued several times to keep cabal cost, but only remove the elite advantage.

For people like us who have big collections it's easy to downplay elite elite advantages.
Steam however is an a ot more competitive environment than mobile games and on Steam rating are much harsher and more impactful than in an app-shop.
Due to being a more competitive environment players on steam want to join competitive play fast, which means getting a full deck should be possible in 2 month or lest, And by competitive I mean everyhing maxed out. There's a limited attentention span and a limited willingless to grind / invest time into a game.

One of the biggest no-gos for steam thus is a P2W title and even though Cabals isn't P2W by definition it's as close to P2W as P2progress gets.
Modern Mode was one way to approach this issue by offering a platform where you were able to get a complete, competitive deck in an acceptable amount of time.

Losing is frustrating - losing because of unfairness even more: And elites are unfair, I'm saying that as somebody who has a ton of elites by this point. 1 resource can make a big difference - and these 1 resource pieces add up in a gamedeciding manner.
That's just how it is, but what's even more of a factor is how it is perceived:
Such things are always perceive even worse than they are, simply because it's natural for humans for blame unfairness rather than their own deficits.
This however means that the perceived disadvantage is an even bigger issue for releasing a popular game. It generates frustration towards the game and frustration leads to some very heated reviews.
And those reviews talking about unfairness aren't simply taken as ignoreable rants - but acknowledged by the community since their core is true (even though the dimensions might not be) .
At this day Steam has so many alternative and similar games that even "mostly positive" games are skipped by players, while "mixed" already is a no-go for many.
Getting fairness right and granting access to EQUAL competitive play within a reasonable amount of time is of major importance.


Thus I think that there should be a mode without elites, for the sake of game, its popularity and future.
It doesn't have to be the Modern mode which was removed - but there has to be some kind of alternative to Classic mode.


EDIT:
Here is the player count of Cabals: Card Blitz which did the above extremely wrong:
https://steamdb.info/app/562540/graphs/
It has an average amount of 20 people or less with a "mixed" rating and has already halfed its playercount within less than 1,5 months.

If Cabals: Magic & Battle Cards wants to be successful you have to aoid making the same mistake again.
Don't force years or month of grind for getting single competitive endgame deck.
Make it accessable and get money through playercount.

Shadowverse started being generous and attracted a ton of players, it now averages 4,5k players on Steam alone, yet the company made 100million$ within 6 month (source: https://mmos.com/news/digital-ccg-heart ... verse-100m ).
And let me tell you as a Shadowverse Masterrank - they games really doesn't deliver cards & balancing anymore.

Faeria also had an extreme playerboost during it's recent release.

The potential playersbase for Cabals has gotten HUGE.
But with the current grind heavy system I will promise you that you'll miss out on more customers than you can imagine.
Cabals has potential, Kyygames just has to do a leap of face and dare to make a step away from trying to solely base their income on "whales".
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Kicek » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:29 pm

Noooo, dude! :)

There is no unfairness in having better cards than your opponent.
The goal of collectible card games is to get as good cards as you can, build a deck and play with it.
What is the point of playing a game where you can not develop any more?

Modern Mode was one way to approach this issue by offering a platform where you were able to get a complete, competitive deck in an acceptable amount of time.


There is no issue, elites are a part of the game that add the purpose of going back to the game each day and doing those dailies, giving a possibility to build a deck considering if a player should use non elite version of card "a" or an elite "b".
Modern did not offer a complete and competitive deck in acceptable amount of time. It offered an untested and boring illusion of a game. Encouraging people not to play instead of doing the opposite. Hurting the 'classic' cabals by splitting the player base.

Finally, Cabals is not missing any customers by being as it is right now. Please consider that the new cards are being added very rarely, and the card base is extremely small as for a game that is on a market for 5 years. Giving a possibility of gathering a complete set of cards in a month or so could kill the game. Instead of this, by actively playing the game every day, going for the weekly prizes and mayhem elites, you can build your card base and explore the possibilities of using different cards in a deck. With the amount of influence given away each day, you can open a free booster every day. That's 30 rares a month. Not to mention the level up prizes... If we had more players than now, the matchmaking system would pair the all elite dudes with other ones and nebies with other newbies. The current system can do it easily, but it can't, because if the only free players are an elite guy and a starter newbie, at the end they will play together.

What Cabals really need is a stable hardware and software background, regular updates (at least 1 new expansion every 6 months) and somehow implementing tournament play to the game (or some kind of events other than just a weekly leaderboard reset).

And please, don't use the Shadowverse as an example, because the entity that made the game is a huge and rich company, that is most famous from their card games being nothing more than p2w (I played Marvel WOH for over 2 years, so I know how they run their business) and has far more resources (marketing is not free) than most of mobile game devs.

BTW Cabals Blitz - does the steam player-count thing covers also the mobile players?
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Sdric » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:00 pm

Looks like we have different impressions of card games.

Your goal is to get as good cards as it gets - this is the common purpose of TRADING card games. However Cabals is not a trading card game, there's no trading involved here, it's a Digital Card Game: like Shadowverse, Hearthstone, Faeria or similar titles.

There's a whole different premises on the business model:
Trading card games encourage players to collect and trade and usually print cards en masse (which we can for sure say is not happening here).
Whereas online card games are less focused on the trading aspect, but more on gameplay.

Digtal card games create a competitive scene and encourage players to to play different decks - meaning money not through flatout better cards, but selling a lot of different ones - this is for example why official tournaments have rules like "decks from three different classes".
The idea is to allow players to not feel disadvantaged and avoid making playing feel like a grind, but instead saying "hey - you can play a fair game and if you progress you get more cool stuff to try!".

------------

Those are the basics - let's skip right to the biggest wrong in your argumentation
"Shadowvers's publisher is knowing for their games being nothing more than pay 2 win".
This is literally the most false statment I have red in ages - Shadowverse gave around !!!!!!49 completely free booster packs!!! to new players and regularly hands out new ones, it's known to be the most generous game of the genre - just enter it into goggle and you'll see:
https://www.google.de/search?q=shadowve ... e&ie=UTF-8

Shadowverse has build a HUGE playerbase within less than a year simply because the sheer amount of free stuff you gets allows you to build your first equal-competitive deck as soon as you start. Your goal is it to gain more cards and more deck, not endless grinding to get a single viable card like it is in Cabals-Elite-Meta.
And by that modell they made 100million$ in 6 month, the numbers speak for themselves.

Shadowverse is the leading example how to make money in the Digital CG-genre AND please the customers at the same time, while breaking into a market where Blizzard had a completely monopoly and insane market power for YEARS.
Cabals has been around even longer - but hasn't gotten remotely close to what Shadowverse managed to do.
And it's not because of gameplay, it's because of marketing and income models. Cabals is as good of a game as Shadowverse.
It's just simply not accessible for the majority of players (who want to play DGCs not TCGs).
Cabals now has the chance to turn the wheel around.



EDIT:
1.) You assume that Cabals patch speed won't change. Steam releases are known to get a Ton of upfront money, if this is invested in further developement games like Shadowverse or Faeria have shown that they get a LOT of more income in the long run. If Cabals does its entrance right Kyygames can easily increase their capacities

2.) Nobody said that they have to get a full collection. Getting a viable deck of a single Cabal is within an acceptabe amount of time is enough. There's 5 more Cabals for people to gain cards for and invest money in this. Card games are not grind MMOs, where you have to stick with 1 character forever.
DCGs live through variety and offering it's players different decks to try and strategies to use.


3.) Given the daily grind and 30 rares per month you suggest that players would need several years to get a full Elite (= "equal-competitive") deck. The majority of players won't stick with a game that long if the are forced to grind and don't see variety.
You are obviously a mobile player who has much more tolerance for these policies, believe me that most steam players don't.

4.) As for your statement "the playerbase is fine it is", sorry that's a short sighted perspective. Kyygames is a company and the primary goal of a company is getting money - which again is gained via increasing its playerbase. If your position was correct the case they wouldn't have invested so much time and resources into the Steam client to begin with, in an expanding market betting on a status quo when other companies expand their market power and new competitors enter the scene is completely unreasonable from an economic perspective.

-Cheers: The guy who got a degree in Operations Research and had to suffer through countless economic classes before he was finally was allowed to program logistic algorithms.
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby MaxisZ » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:15 pm

Kicek wrote:With the amount of free influence that we're getting now, building a semi-elite competitive deck is not hard at all. Going for that golden cards, doing dailies, grinding the ladder, that's what drives players to the game.

This is absolutely not true. I've been actively playing for more than a month. Bought only Primal boosters (I did not know whether this cabal is good or not) Sold all the extra cards without crafting. I believed that I could collect at least one fraction and then enjoy the modern game. But then the modern game was eliminated and I could not even collect one Primal without ANY elites !
The feature of Cabals - bad matchmaking. So if you play well and get Adeptus then you regularly meet elites and lose. In Cabals even some card pool advantage without elites enough for lose. Is this game process enjoyable?
I agree that loyality cost is a normal part of Cabals. But donat elites ruins this mechanics. So KYY actually need to remove elites first :)
But I do not despond as one great Belgium CCG just released. And other great Polish CCG will soon release. ;)
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Mip » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:58 pm

I'm guessing the Belgian CCG is Faeria, is the Polish CCG Gwent?
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby MaxisZ » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:27 pm

yes
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Xorcist » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:06 am

Here is my point of view on elites (from another older post), which I think is worth consideration.

At some point, theoretically, everyone will have full elite decks. So with that in mind the entire strategy behind elites is lost.

However if elites where limited to a specific number per deck, similar to how you can not have more than three of the same card in a deck, I personally think it would add a lot to the overall strategy of deck building. It would make it a more dynamic part of the game, instead of just trying to get everything elite, because elites are inherently "better".

I have quite a few elites, and every one of them are in every one of my decks. At no point do I choose a non-elite over and elite because there is just no reason not to. And I can say for certain those elites have won me games where I would have otherwise lost. They do unbalance the game a bit.

A full non-elite deck versus a full elite deck, of players of the same skill level, will undoubtedly give a edge to the full elite deck. So the question is how can we rebalance the game... and I think an elite limit would go a long way to achieving that goal.

Perhaps no more than 1/3 of your deck could be elite. With a minimum deck size of 30 cards, that's 10 cards... Which seems pretty fair. I normally play with decks of 52 cards, which would allow me 17 elites, still totally sane... but image 52 elites... I mean that just seems broken.
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Re: The removal of Modern Mode - a step back

Postby Mip » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:31 am

I'm just curious what they're going to replace it with? Or how it's getting changed.
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