The future of Cabals (2017)

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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby Sdric » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:44 pm

Mip wrote:
Sdric wrote:
Buff:
Trephination - Additional effect: Target creature becomes immune to enemy spells and abilities.



Use it on golem + Tarnhari/Blitz Trooper and how are you ever going to stop it?


Buff a creature to have higher attack until it's stronger. Considering that one has to save up 6(+2)+4(+2)+3(+1) so a minimum of 13 resources to pull off I think it's fair to be tough to stop. Bog candle and Banshee win games faster with a lot less requirements.
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby Mip » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:13 pm

Sdric wrote:
Mip wrote:
Sdric wrote:
Buff:
Trephination - Additional effect: Target creature becomes immune to enemy spells and abilities.



Use it on golem + Tarnhari/Blitz Trooper and how are you ever going to stop it?


Buff a creature to have higher attack until it's stronger. Considering that one has to save up 6(+2)+4(+2)+3(+1) so a minimum of 13 resources to pull off I think it's fair to be tough to stop. Bog candle and Banshee win games faster with a lot less requirements.


Bog candles and banhee can just be removed by a removal spell.
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby Sdric » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Mip wrote:Bog candles and banhee can just be removed by a removal spell.


That statement alone implies that you lose unless you have at least 6 removal spells in your deck, which MUST NOT use against anything else than these two (unless you're Danaan and get instant destruction as a bonus on your creatures..) - or you instantly lose the game if you don't draw a response in time.

It's simply not balanced from a deckbuilding perspective - that 2 different cards completely dictate the metagame, don't have/draw the response in time? Or dare not to put at least 6 cards in your deck to tech against 2 (OUT OF 177!) cards ? Lose instantly!

It's broken. No card should have this power to shut down half of the map so easily. It's incredibly unhealthy for the games since it significantly limits deckbuilding.

EDIT: The issue here being that both are immune to direct attacks - in a board based game. Any other threat (current Fionog excluded) can be dealt with by approaching and forcing combat (even if it's throwing cheap units at them, or buffing up an existing one e.g. to deal with fast attack). Those two units completely deny your opponent the ability to approach and attack in a big radius around them which can even be moved. That's the most gamewinning power you have in a board based game (especially when combined with instant destruction - or cheaper than most removal spells).
Note that both cards (if you have teched against them and drew your tech cards in time) also trade at least 1:2 in terms of cost or card advantage, in most instances even more.
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby Lurrie » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:06 am

I agree with everything Sdric said. I also made a post this morning with some ideas on how to potentially nerf Banshee to a reasonable extent. Anyone have any thoughts? viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3577&start=10#p19583
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby Lurrie » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:42 pm

I have elaborated further in an improved, separate post/poll. Please read through it and vote according to your beliefs. Any feedback/responses/discussion/criticisms are also more than welcome. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3584&p=19635#p19635
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby dougsymon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:09 am

Lurrie wrote:I have elaborated further in an improved, separate post/poll. Please read through it and vote according to your beliefs. Any feedback/responses/discussion/criticisms are also more than welcome. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3584&p=19635#p19635


The poll has been removed because it was a duplicate asking the same question and with less responses. However please read the excellent post by Lurrie that is linked above. We can have another poll a while after the balance changes have been made :)
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby Sdric » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:48 pm

dougsymon wrote:
Lurrie wrote:I have elaborated further in an improved, separate post/poll. Please read through it and vote according to your beliefs. Any feedback/responses/discussion/criticisms are also more than welcome. http://cabalsgame.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 635#p19635


The poll has been removed because it was a duplicate asking the same question and with less responses. However please read the excellent post by Lurrie that is linked above. We can have another poll a while after the balance changes have been made :)



To be honest, I think it was good that he created a new topic. It was being much more constructive than the original one which you're refering to. Sometimes when things get out of line it can be good if things start fresh.
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby dougsymon » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:25 am

Sdric wrote: Sometimes when things get out of line it can be good if things start fresh.


Agreed, a good time will be when the balance changes have been implemented and we have had a while to enjoy the results ;)
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby MaxisZ » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:56 am

IMHO fionog will be poor since it exhaust. May be better to play any 4/3 creature with good ability which can immediately move and attack. (funny that not touch banshee which is better than fionog)
Lugnasad Will be poor on small boards. It's already poor on the smallest cabals board. BUT it will keep all OP mana boost potencies on large boards! So it's strange balance: Lugnasad will proc depending on board size.

I do not understand why kyy radically Nerf good cards (fionog) or do nothing with op cards (banshee). Why don't gentle step-by-step balancing ?
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Re: NEWSFLASH: The future of Cabals

Postby cashless » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:07 am

cashless wrote:This is nearly/mostly all good news. I'm still absorbing the changes, but want to comment on the first one I am disappointed in.

This was written as a "Buff" but it seems more like a "Nerf."
Blast Courier has very limited usage and the ability is self-damaging, so we designed a new ability more in line with the card's intention.
Actually, I'd much prefer to "destroy anything with 1 power."

#1 I find red especially struggles against toughness (no surprise), and taking out a bog candle and/or another 1 power unit that got Vasilisa's doll applied to it.
#2 It extends the reach. Most anything can kill a 1 power unit, but Blast Courier can move and then destroy that 1 power guy...and anything with 1 power around IT comes to a regrettable end. A really nice, explosive suprise even against non-Bearclaw players.

It was/is totally worth the self-destruction, and I can use a magician to bring it back to my hand if I don't want to self-destruct. And self-destruction is a pretty key, distinguishing characteristic of red.

It's a very specific use, but there are many times I found it to be a key member, without ever being a game-winner, it could be a key moment card. This nerf feels like just watering down red and making like a couple other cards, instead of leaving a unique ability intact.
Dougsymon,

There were several comments on how this is a nerf instead of a buff.

Was any of that feedback passed on?
Do you have any comments?

I'll add that Vril already has available to it:
Image
And
Image
And
Image

Only Vril Field Generator can tough a Bog Candle that has Vasilisa's Doll on it, and it still can't kill it until it has been used twice. Perhaps that's a good thing, but this card was one of the equalizers for Dominion, and now will likely be put on the shelf by all users. We have other options to do similar effects, no replacement for what this card actually did. And the power has been reduced from using it twice, and hurting anything the enemy has around that 1-power card, to using it once and hurting your own side.

It appears to be a nerf. Are we missing anything that makes this a buff for Dominion?
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